Interview 11
Lukaco (Pseudonymize) is 19 years old and has been in the scamming industry for 3 years. Lukaco combines the scamming with his education at the senior high school. While a student Lukaco takes the financial responsibility of his father, mother, 2 elder brothers, and 2 younger siblings. Lukaco is next to the leader in their group. Lukaco has people working under him as well. Lukaco’s boss has international cooperation with hackers in Nigeria and Egypt.  The interview was done at the researcher’s place of residence. 
Illegality and immorality
Lukaco mentioned that illegality and immorality are not entirely different. According to him, sometimes, illegality and immorality are the same and sometimes they are different. To illustrate the difference, he mentioned that when sometime is illegal the police will arrest a person for doing it and when something is immoral either the Chiefs, or even God will punish the offender. 
I can say that they are the same or?... or they are not the same?... ok haha I was thinking that you wil say its not correct ahah.. so I can say that they are the same because if for example something is immoral it means is a bad thing and if something is illegal it means is a bad thing. So you can see that is the same..yes,..for example is you do something and is bad, is illegal and the police will come, like look for you and arrest you but sometimes too the police will not come and the Chief can just tell people to bring you to his palace and he will punish..so that means that is immoral.. but see, the chief and the people will not say that you do immoral thing and police or the chief punish you…they will say that you do a bad thing..so bad thing is immoral and is also illegal..but when the police catch you, they will just say that is illegal…but when you chief bring you to the palace, you will, for instance they can just say you do something bad or immoral…even self, God can punish you if the Chief or the police doesn’t know you did not.. because God sees everything.. even you do you something in the dark God will see you and punish you….yes, like a say, the only different is that when is illegal, police will arrest you and when is immoral the Chief will punish you or even God.. maybe somebody will think different, but for me, is like this…

He illustrate the similarities, he mentioned that both illegality and immorality are punishable and that they are all bad representing something that is bad. He gave an example of stealing. He mentioned that when anybody steals, the police can arrest the person or the chief (local traditional rulers) can punish the person. From this illustration, he mentioned that stealing is bad, immoral and illegal.  He mentioned that immoral activities are punished by traditional leaders (chiefs) and God because immoral activities defy the norms of the society and the teaches of the Quran. According to him, only few things are illegal and not immoral but he believes that those things that are illegal and not immoral are still immoral upon deeper analysis. He gave an example of disobeying the traffic rules. According to him, it’s illegal to disobey the traffic rules and that people don’t consider it as immoral but he things that it’s immoral to disobey the traffic. According to him, when you disobey the traffic it can lead to another person’s death and that is immoral. 
….like, God will punish the person because the Quran say that we should not do something bad because its immoral. Plus the community here don’t allow bad behaviour..so that is why the chiefs also will punish somebody.. yes, I think that something can be illegal and not immoral.. for example if you just ride your motor in the traffic and the red light catch you, is illegal and police will catch you and just collect your money or your motor or send you to the police station.. but the chief or God will not punish you if you just ride your motor and the traffic light is red….but sometime example, maybe like, you didn’t stop when the traffic light is red and you just hit somebody with your motor and the person die, it means that you kill somebody, and that is immoral, so I think the traffic can also be immoral because, for instance, you didn’t break the traffic rule, the person will kill wouldn’t have died… we can say that if you break the traffic light, its also immoral but many people don’t say it like that.. just to make it simple, immoral and illegal are all bad things ahahah… this your question is tricking too much hahaha
Importance of obeying the laws and moral codes all time
According to Lukaco, it is not necessary to obey all the laws and our morality all the time. According to him, if a person strictly obeys the laws and morality, the person cannot function as a human. According to him, though illegal and immoral activities are bad but people can achieve good things from the bad activities. 
Like when I was saying the things, illegal or immoral is all bad but you know, we can not follow them all the time…because you know, we hustle everything and if you follow the law all the time, you cannot survive.. even sometimes, do you know that you can even do something immoral and it will be God?...yes I’m telling you, sometimes illegal and immoral things can solve our problems……
He mentioned the example of lying to resolve a conflict. He mentioned that lying is bad but when a person lie to resolve a conflict, the lies become good because it led to the resolution of conflict which is more deadly. He gave an example, “if two people are angry at each other and threaten to kill each other and you go to the first person (person A) and told him that person B said he is sorry about what he (person B) did and talk to him (person A) to forgive him (person B). After that, you go to the second person (person B) and lie to him that the first person (Person A) said you should come and apologize on behalf of him (person A). when you do this, you will resolve the fight between them and nobody dies. He mentioned that, though lying is immoral but it has become the way to save the lives of people and that lying in this regards is use to achieve good thing and God will even reward you for that. Finally, he mentioned that if a person can break the law or morality to achieve sometime better in life, the person can do it. 

Why people break the laws and morality
Lukaco mentioned that people break the laws and moral code to solve some social problems such as poverty, protect lives, and many more. He mentioned that there are no jobs in the country and many people do illegal things and immoral things to make money. According to him, immoral and illegal things are there to be broken for better things. According to him, people who break the law or their morality to achieve nothing are irrational people. 
…is just like what I was telling you before, people do immoral and illegal things because of the problems in this life.. this life is hard too much. So sometimes people do the bad things to solve their problems… example, like poverty, to protect their life, or to help another person and many many many things… but for me, I think that if somebody break the law or do anything bad because they want to solve some problem, is good but if they just do something very bad for nothing, they are just fools….
He gave an example of scamming, masturbation, and stealing. According to him, scamming is immoral and illegal but people do it to provide income for themselves and their families. According to him, scamming is immoral but they (scammers) use it to save the lives of themselves and their families and that scamming becomes a good thing. He also mentioned that, instead of a person going to have sex with another man’s wife or fornicating, he can just masturbate without having sex with somebody’s wife. According to him, though masturbation is immoral but its better to go and have sex with somebody’s wife or fornication.
According to him, there was a time his neighbor came to him and asked him for money to send her son to the hospital because the child was critical sick. According to him, at that time he didn’t have money but he had a good client who gives him money upon request. According to him, he took the woman and the her child to the hospital for the doctors to start the treatment while he finds money for the hospital bills. According to him, he was at the hospital and requested money from the client and fortunately, the client sent the money to him. He mentioned that, he had to come and give the woman some money and paid the hospital bills too. According to him, scamming is immoral but he was able to use it (scamming) to save the child’s life and to make the woman happy. According to him, scamming at that time was God and God will understand. According to him, God will forgive him for scamming because he use the money to save the life of a child and make somebody happy. 
Why scamming is illegal and immoral
He said that he still believes that scamming is both illegal and immoral though police don’t arrest scammers again. According to him, scamming is punishable by law but the police are not arresting them (scammers) because the police realized that they (scammers) are using the scam for a good reason. He mentioned that some few years back, the police were arresting scammers because they (scammers) were using their money to cause tension in the society such as spreading money on the street, disrespecting people, breaking laws, etc. According to him, the police don’t arrest scammers again because scammers are now developing the country, helping people, opening businesses, and doing a lot to help the country. 
My guy, scamming is helping us a lot but is still bad, is immora….. yes, is also illegal even though the police don’t arrest us again.. you know, some time ago, I don’t know whether you know about it… the police was arresting scammers, like 2013, or 2015, I can’t remember, but they were arresting scammers… they stop because now they know that scam is good because we develop the country, we help people, we make businesses, even the scam is helping the government because, this scam is helping the country a lot.. they are no arm rubbery again but the scam is helping… you know, the police was arresting Gameboys because they were using their money to cause troubles… for example like spreading money in the street and people were following them, they didn’t respect people, they were just doing a lot of bad things.. that why the police was arresting them…. Of course, they didn’t arrest them because they were doing the game, but they were arresting them because of how they were using the money…..

However, he mentioned that scamming is immoral because it involve stealing, lying, causing harm to clients, and using magic. According him, scamming will always be immoral as long us people lie, steal, and hurt clients but he believes that scamming is only good if a scammer uses the money to support other people who are in distress. 

Lukaco attitude to Clients
Lukaco has never decided to stop scamming clients, believing that the scammers and their families need the money more. According to him, he scams because he believes that when he takes the money from clients, that money can be used to help his family, friends, and provide job for other people. According to him, he has three boutiques and two buses working for him and each boutique and bus has provided some people jobs. He believes that, though it’s immoral to scam but its good to scam to help those who are poor or would have suffered more. He mentioned that is often the case that when you chat with clients, at some point you don’t want to scam him/ her again because you will feel guilty especially when the client doesn’t have money again. According to him, its better to scam a white person who is poor than to scam a black man because white people are not suffering like black people. 
He mentioned that he has decided to stop scamming some of his clients because they didn’t have more money again and he didn’t want them to suffer more. According to him, he had a client in Australia and he was a difficult person and never wanted to send him money. According to him, he (scammer) suffered dealing with that client but eventually he succeeded in making him to start paying. According to him, he took a lot of money from the client until the client didn’t have enough and he decided to stop. He mentioned that not because he felts sympathy for the client but because he didn’t want the client to send his last money to him and suffer. According to him, the only time  he stops to scam from clients is when the client starts struggling to send him the less money he requests. According to him, he will stop to scam client if the client was able to send him 3000 dollars until the client is not able to send him 300 dollars. He believes that immediately the client is not able to send 300 dollars, it means the client is broke and further scamming could affect the clients life. 

Who becomes Lukaco client
Lukaco clients are usually white people. According to him, it doesn’t make any sense to scam a black person because blacks are already suffering and scamming a black person can never be moral. He believes that taking money from the white can be moral sometimes because the money can be used to support the life of a black person in distress. He mentioned, even if a scammer wants to scam a black person or a person in Ghana, it will not be possible because the black man will not agree to send money without meeting face to face before. According to him, even if he has the chance to scam his rich neighbor, he will not scam such a person because it will more detrimental if he’s rich neighbor becomes poor. According to him, when a person scams he’s neighbor, it means the person is capable of killing his own children. He explained that every black person is struggle, whether rich or poor and that scamming a struggle person is not good. According to him, they are scamming the white people and using the money to help other people in need hoping that God will forgive them