Interview 10
Chairman-one (pseudonymize) is 31 years and have been scamming for 5 years. Chairman-one is married with one child and they live in his own house. Chairman has scammers working under him and those he works under too. The interview was done at the football part where he goes to play football on Sundays. 
Illegality and immorality
Chairman-one considers illegality to be something that is dangerous and against the law. He defines immorality as something that is bad in Islam. According to him, morality is only in religion and that sometimes a person feels something is right but it might be immoral in the Quran. To explain, he gave an example of pork. According to him, some people might think that eating pork is not immoral because pork is also meat but the Quran said is not good. According to him, since the Quran made it haram, eating pork is immoral. 
…. I think that illegal things are dangerous and its bad in the law… the police will come and arrest somebody who is doing illegal things.. but the immoral things is something that is in the Quran….for example like, something that Islam say you should not do,… that thing is immoral… is not in the mind... because sometimes you can think that something is good for you but the religion will say that is haram…. For example, some people will just think that is ok to eat pig meat because is also a meat… yes, but the Quran say that don’t eat pig meat because is haram… so in Islam like this, if you eat pig, its immoral…….

To further differentiate illegality and immorality, Chairman-one mentioned that illegal things are define my human beings and immoral things are defined by God and that the most important life-guide is moral lessons and should be taken more serious. He further gave an example of pre-marital sex to differentiate between illegal and immoral. He mentioned that, if there is consent between man and woman, it is not illegal in the country to have pre-marital sex, but having pre-marital sex, consented or not, it is immoral because the Quran said we should not do that. 
… we can also say like this, you know illegal things are man-made and immoral things are God made… why I said that?.. because illegal things, is like the government and some people, like in the parliament will just sit down and just write something and say that is illegal.. do you understand?.... ok, but immoral is in the Quran…God Himself say that is immoral and if you do it, it means that God will punish you… ok, for example.. let’s take sex for example… like if someone is you’re your wife,, maybe like the person is your girlfriend or your friend and you have sex to her is immoral because the Quran say that we should not do zina (pre-marital sex)…yes, even when she agree or she didn’t agree to have sex, if you do it, is immoral because she is not your wife…. But its is illegal to have sex with your girlfriend in this country..so you see the different?...that one is different.. example like, if she didn’t agree and you force her, it means that you rape her... for that one, she can go to police station and report you and they will come and arrest you…because you rape her… yes, for rate is a big crime. Of course, for immoral whether rape or she agree, if she is not your wife, is immoral…..

According to him, the law makers are human beings and can’t not see the bad side of having sex before marriage. He mentioned that when something is immoral, it means it’s bad for all humanity but when something is illegal, it doesn’t mean it’s bad for all human. He said that, because the law is not always right, that is why they change it all the time. 
Chairman-one view on sticking to the laws and the moral codes
He mentioned that it is always good to stick to the moral lessons but not the law. He mentioned that the moral codes are the life-guide to humanity and that anyone who follows it will have good life and will also go to heaven when he/she dies. On the other hand, he mentioned that the law can be blind sometimes and that people shouldn’t follow the law all the time. 
…for me I will advise people to always try their possible best to always try and do follow the Quran…yes, the moral one. But for the law, is just stupid sometimes… yes, for the moral one, God Himself said it and it guide the life of all human beings… so like, if you do something immoral, it means that everybody in the world will say you are doing immoral.. if you follow the Quran, your life will be very nice in this world and when we go to the judgement day, God will put you in heaven… for the law, no no no.. because human beings say them, sometimes the law will not see the truth because human beings always make mistakes…so, you can’t trust man-made law ……….
He added that some of the things the law made illegal is nonsense and gave an example of illegal mining, driving unregistered car, and picking more people in your car. According to him, the government hasn’t given jobs to the youth and some of them survive on the illegal mining. So for the law to make it illegal is wrong because those people need to survive. According to him, the government made the moral illegal because the politicians want to benefit from the gold alone. According to him, people shouldn’t always rely on the law because the law cannot be trusted.

Why people break both the law and the moral codes
Chairman-one mentioned that it is the nature of people to break the laws and the moral codes, arguing that we are humans and that sometimes the social conditions will make us do somethings immoral or illegal. According to him, poverty, unemployment, and injustice can all make people break the law and the moral codes. 
…for breaking laws and immoral, is normal this day.. why I said that? You know this world, things are very difficult… like no jobs, poverty, people cheating another person, people betraying each other, and many many things. All this things will make you do illegal or immoral things…..
He gave an example of scamming, illegal mining, and prostitution. He mentioned that, though scamming is bad, he scams because he doesn’t have a job and nobody will give him or his family money to survive. He also illustrated the case of the illegal mining and prostitution and explained that those people are into those activities because of lack of jobs and poverty. He added that sometimes too, people go against the law or the immoral codes for revenge. 
He gave an example of the movie he watched where a child grew up to revenge the death of his parents. According to him, in the movie, some group of rebels killed the parents of a little boy and the little boy grew up with the goal of killing those who murdered his parents. He mentioned that, the child grew stronger and started killing his parents murderers because of the pain they (murderers) left in his heart. He mentioned that, though the laws and moral code don’t allow killing but the boy had to kill those people because of what they did to his family. He mentioned that, sometimes a person can break the law or sense of morality and be right. According to him, God is aware of the social conditions that can make a person to act immoral. He said that, there is a verse in the Quran that says that when a person in distress commits immoral act, the person shall be forgiven. He gave mentioned that the Islamic scholars gave them a story of a man who was starving to death and there was food for him anywhere. He mentioned that, that man was instructed by God to eat pork to save his life. According to him, God didn’t punished the person because the life in him was important. According to him, when a person is in distress, the person can act immoral to survive. 
Illegality and immorality of Scamming
Chairman-one believe that scamming was illegal but has always been immoral. He explained that some few years ago police and the law enforcement agencies were arresting scammers but now they don’t arrest them, and that is why he said that it is no longer illegal. He explained that the police and the government realized that scamming is not suppose to be illegal. According to him, the government and the police officers benefit from the scamming and that is why they have stopped arresting scammers. He mentioned that, the scamming bring about development such as construction of roads, housing and accommodation, and bring businesses into the country. He added that scammers are sponsoring musicians and politicians that is why scamming is no longer illegal. He mentioned the case of his boss in the scamming industry. According to him, he’s boss is a financier to the current Member of Parliament (MP) one of the constituencies and that sometimes, the MP helps his boss to take money from the bank if the bank is proving stubborn. He mentioned that there was a time his boss was going to received $200,000.00 from a client and the bank didn’t want to give him the money. According to him, he (boss) had to call the MP to help him take the money from the bank. He mentioned that his boss had to give the bank manager and the MP some money. He mentioned that he also received his part of the money.  In terms of immorality, he mentioned that though scamming is immoral and there is no objection to that, he still believes that God will forgive them (scammers ) because they are doing to feed themselves and their families. According to him scamming is immoral for several reasons. He mentioned that it involves lying to someone, pretending to be someone, and stealing. He mentioned that all the activities in scamming is immoral and that he cannot debate it. He mentioned that every scammer knows that scamming is bad. 
He added that scamming is becoming more immoral because most scammers have integrated spiritual and magical means to the scamming. He mentioned that the spiritual aspect of scamming is very bad and that God will not give them (scammers) for using magic. According to him, he tries not to integrate magic and spiritual means because he doesn’t want be punished by God. Another thing he mentioned is that God will punished the government and the Whiteman for scamming because he believes that if the government had given them (scammers) jobs, they wouldn’t have been scammers. He also believes that the white man came to Africa and took their gold, leaving Africa in poverty. According to him, if the Whiteman didn’t do that, African would have been rich and they (scammers) wouldn’t have been scammers. 
….this job, the government and the whiteman is the one who cause all the problem…because one, if the government give us jobs, we will not be doing scam but he didn’t give us jobs, that is why we are also doing the scam to survive… the whiteman is also part of it.. because you know, somethings if you want to understand sometime, you have to know how it start…I hope you understand… This scam think is because of poverty and you know who started the poverty… is the white people… because if they didn’t come and steal all our gold, like this country will be rich and everybody will be good.. but because they steal the gold, that is why there is money in the system…. For me, I think the government and the whiteman is the cause of this scam…. If God will punish, God will punish the government and the whiteman…..no, God will not punish scammers because they are scamming because the government and the white people are the reason why….. 
Chairman-one Attitude to Clients
According to him, Romance scam is the one that makes scammers to know more about their clients and sometimes it becomes difficult for the scammer to take money from clients. He mentioned that the purpose of scamming is to make money and that sometimes it is difficult to take money from some clients. He mentioned that some of the white people are poor and living in a more difficult situation and that such white people, when you meet them as clients you (scammer) will not want to scam him/her. He mentioned that if a person is already suffering and doesn’t have enough to feed himself or herself, God will punish you if you take money from such a person. However, he believes that scamming somebody who is better than you financially, then it is fine to scam that person but scamming a person in distress is a bad. He gave a case of a client he met. According to him, he met the client on Facebook but moved the client to WhatsApp where they could continue their conversation with more privacy. He mentioned that, he was chatting with the woman (client) and he professed love to the client and the client accepted his love. According to him, after they started dating, the woman started telling him so much about her life. According to him, before the woman started telling him so much about herself, he had taking about 3000 dollars from her. But when  he got to know that the woman’s life is more pathetic, he decided to block the her because he didn’t want to continue taking money from such a person. According to him, the woman had cancer, didn’t have enough money after retirement and that her daughter was also sick and she was taking care of her too. According to the scammer, the woman was in serious distress and he didn’t want to intensify her suffering. 
Who becomes a client
Chairman-one clients are usually from USA, Canada, UK, Germany, and other European Countries. According to him, scamming is to take money from rich people and not to take money from poor people or people in distress. He, however mentioned that, new scammers don’t know that because they just care about the money. According to him, the new scammers can scam any white person, whether poor or rich. According to him, when they (scammers) start, they don’t have the feeling of sympathy because their condition (poverty) will not allow them to think about the client situation. He mentioned that, when new scammers begins to make money, they will realized that its bad to take money from poor people. On the other hand, he mentioned that scammers don’t scam black people or people they know. He mentioned that there are those who scam blacks or even people they know. According to him, those people are different from Scammers. He mentioned that those people are those who do mobile money scams, and even lie to their friends and neighbors to take money. According to him, he knows a guy who does local scam. He mentioned that, that guy makes fake documents and sell lands to people. According to him, he (local scammer) forges land documents and find people who can buy those lands. According to him, the local scammer and his cohorts have no conscience, arguing that those people they scam are themselves suffering and don’t have money.
….yes, my clients are from Europe, USA, Canada, and some rich rich countries…. Because that’s where the money is..if you want to steal money, you steal from rich guys..so even I don’t scam white people if she’s poor..but you see the new guys in the business, they can steal from, look whether poor white man or rich, they will steal.. the reason is that, you know this new guys, they are hungry for even 5 dollars because they no get money. but when they reach some level, they will stop scamming the poor people…yes, when I started I use to scam any white person but the game has change ahah.. I hope you understand…. I mean, it least I have gotten something small from his business so the poor people I don’t want to scam them…